Monday, November 28, 2016

Nevěřte všemu, třeba ve wikipedii...

Včera, začala jsem hrát s Radio Praha/Česky Rozhlas. poslouchat Radio Praha.

To je způsob, jak slyšet a číst text. 

Také, buduji svou se staví mé slovní zásoby, třeba včera naučila jsem se to slovo "hrošice", což je moc důležité pro můj každodenní život. 

Dnes, poslouchala jsem tento článek tomto članku o Wikipedii, a jak ženské nápady tam jsou málo zastoupeny. 

Já, jsem upravila na wikipedii jednou v životě. A nebylo to na hlavní stránce, ale pohřben zahrabané. Bylo to o myšlence vzniku #. 

Ale vážně. Pokud jste někdy četl jakýkoli članky ani okrajově v souvislosti s pohlavím na wikipedii, samozřejmě najdete, aby že byly napsányý muži.

Náš oblíbený komediální rozhlasové pořad řekl v 2011 V roce 2011, v našem oblíbeném komediálním rozhlasovém pořadu říkali, že tento způsob: 
Chcete ženy upravit wikipedii? Chcete, aby ženy upravovaly wikipedii? Začněte každý článek se slovy, "řekl muž..."
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Zde jsou moje nová slova dnes: moje dnešní nová slova:


věda : science
pořádalo (pořádat) : organized
pozornost : attention
zdravý rozum : common sense
poznáte : to know
"vyřešení německé otázky : “resolving the German Question” (!)
vyhnání : expulsion
vysídlení : displacement
dobové : contemporaneousry

A protože dnes také jsem se naučila slovo "třeba", zde jsou některé věty s mým slovům s mými slovy a třeba.

Pro dobrý vědecký experiment, je třeba ovládací kontrolní vzorek.
Pořadame setkání v naše domě, třeba hon na čarodějnice a večíreky prodat Tupperware.
Pozornost ve třídě je třeba důležitá, takže nemusíte selhat.
Je ted' nedostatek zdravý rozum, třeba lidé zvoliliení trumfů...
Poznat kulturu, musíte cestovat, třeba. Abyste poznali kluturu, je třeba cestovat.
Lidé zůstávají etnocentrickýmié bastardy, třeba věříit, že vyhnání sudetských němců bylo "vyřešení německé otázky."
Syrská válka vedla k vysídlení milionů, třeba do Řecka nebo Německao.
Dobové současné umění je blbost, a že toto je třeba uznat tento pokud chcete být mým přítelem.
Napoleon a Jane Austen byly dobových lidé.
Znovu...opravit mé hloupé chyby.


9 comments:

  1. "v wikipedie" - you need to use the correct grammatical case, which is the 3rd here, wikipedii (Wikipedia is feminine in Czech.). Also, the preposition "v" (in) changes to "ve" when it would be unpronouncable, as is the case here. So "ve wikipedii" (in Wikipedia), or alternatively, "z wikipedie" (from Wikipedia).

    "začala jsem hrát s Radio Praha" - in Czech, we usually listen to the radio, "začala jsem poslouchat Radio Praha". If we wanted to incorporate the playing, we could say "začala jsem si přehrávat Radio Praha" (started playing Radio Praha to myself), but it does not sound very natural.

    "Také, se staví mé slovní zásoby" -

    "naučila jsem to slovo" - you're missing the reflexive "se", "naučila jsem se" (I learned (myself)). While there are two different verbs in English, teach and learn, we only have one in Czech and require the pronoun to specify which we mean: I learned something = Naučila jsem se něco / I taught somebody something = Naučila jsem ho/ji něco.

    "muj" - "můj".

    "poslouchala jsem tomto článku" - I listened to this article - "poslouchala jsem tento článek" (4th g. case). Or you could say "poslouchala jsem o tomto článku" - I listened (to a story) about this article.

    "Já, jsem upravila na wikipedii" - either "upravila jsem wikipedii" (I've edited wikipedia) or "upravila jsem článek/něco na wikipedii" (I've edited an article/something on wikipedia).

    "ale pohřben." - since the subject is "to", of a neuter, it should be "pohřbené". In this context, we usually say "zahrabané" (which would also be translated as buried).

    "někdy četl" - is correct if you're writing to a male reader. But usually you write to a wider audience, "they", also in Czech we have this concept of "vykání", where you address a single person also as if there were more of them to be polite. So you would probably use "(vy jste) někdy četli".

    "jakýkoli články ani okrajově" - I'm not entirely sure what you wanted to say here :-) but my guess would be "any article which might just only mention gender"? If that's true, you don't want "ani", which is negative (not even), but "byť jen" or "třeba jen". (Sorry to mess with your impression of handling třeba by adding another meaning :-))

    "aby byly napsáný" - "že byly napsány".

    "pořad řekl v 2011" - For one, in Czech, a show cannot talk on its own. "V našem oblíbeném komediálním rozhlasovém pořadu říkali" (using anonymous they). Secondly, a simple rule, you cannot say just "v 2011". The help is simple, you say "v roce 2011".

    "že tento způsob:" - I don't get the meaning you wanted to express.

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  2. "Chcete ženy upravit wikipedii?" - This sounds like you're addressing women and asking them if they want to. "Chcete, aby ženy upravovaly wikipedii?" would be better.

    "moje nová slova dnes" - "moje dnešní nová slova". Made an adjective out of today, so "my today's new words".

    "věty s mým slovům" - bad grammatical case again, here you have the 3rd, but want the 7th: "s mými slovy".

    "je třeba ovládací" - sorry, don't get it.

    "Pořadame setkání v naše domě, třeba hon na čarodějnice a večíreky prodat Tupperware." - "Pořádáme", "v našem", "večírky" (this is the way it works, -ek => -ky, not -eky). "prodat Tupperware" is an infinitive, you need to either change it to "s prodejem Tupperware" (with Tupperware sale) or to a sentence of its own "večírky, kde prodáváme Tupperware" (where we sell Tupperware).

    "takže nemusíte selhat" - this means "so you needn't fail". Did you mean "nesmíte" (mustn't)? This is usually very confusing for Czechs learning English, so it only makes sense if the confusion works both ways :-)

    "nedostatek zdravý rozum" - you need 2nd case to supply the function of "of": "nedostatek zdravého rozumu". This way, it looks like you want to name a common sense a deficiency :-)

    "lidé zvolení trumfů" - not sure what you meant, "people electing Trump" would be "lidé volící Trumpa" (actually, it means "voting for", not "elected", because the latter cannot be expressed this way in Czech, you cannot say "zvolící").

    "Poznat kulturu, musíte cestovat, třeba." - "Abyste poznali kulturu, je třeba cestovat" or "K poznání kultury třeba/musíte cestovat". (Je) třeba in this meaning is equivalent to "(is) necessary", so if you use it, you don't use "musíte" (must), and vice versa.

    "Lidé zůstávají etnocentrické bastardy, třeba věřit," - A case again, you have 4th, want 7th: "Lidé zůstávají etnocentrickými bastardy, třeba věří"

    "do Řecka nebo Německo" - "do Řecka nebo Německa".

    "dobové" means "of the age (we're talking about)". So you can translate dobové as contemporary, but it's not always fitting to translate contemporary as dobové, only when the time is in the past. When you're talking about something that is contemporary now, you'd better use "současné" (current, of this age).

    "a že je třeba uznat tento" - "toto je třeba uznat", "tento fakt je třeba uznat"

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  3. Sorry, but you've been warned ;-) Ah, I missed one:

    "Také, se staví mé slovní zásoby" - "Také buduji svou slovní zásobu" (I'm building my vocabulary).

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  4. Děkuji mnohokrát, opravdu oceňuji vaší/tvou [I have no idea which one to use here. Are you a vy or a ty to me?] pomoc!


    [There is actually the exact corresponding concept in old English, with thee/thou vs. you but you will only see this in the Bible or Shakespeare, and oddly it is reversed. Thee/thou is supposed to be the familiar version, the tyváni. But if you used it that way today, you would sound like you were reciting an epic poem or something. “O thou fountain of purest water…” etc. I understand this concept very well, actually, having lived in France where il faut savoir quand vouvoyer et tutoyer. But still, it is very awkward for me as a nonnative speaker. I feel like I have to ask permission to know if I should call someone vous or tu, vy nebo ty. There is a silly phrase for this in English: “DTR”, or “Define The Relationship” - a talk where you sit down with your boyfriend/girlfriend and talk about how the relationship is working out/what you mean to each other/if things are going to continue in a certain direction, etc. A giant meta nightmare that usually ends in tears for people who overthink things. I’m so glad to be married and out of that hellish stage of life!]
    How do you know that Wikipedia is ženy?


    Taky v anglický, jsme se poslouchat rádio. But we can also play the radio. There is a stupid joke: “The only thing [implying an instrument] I know how to play is the radio.” Ale v tomto případě, hraji s *myšlenou* rádia. It is also an unnatural, metaphoric way of saying it in English, but that’s what I was going for :-) I wanted to express the idea that my language learning experience is like me exploring a very large and interesting playground, in which one of the many sandboxes (or swingsets, or whatever) could be listening to the radio. My point: “I play the radio” =/= “I play with the [idea of the] radio.” But do you “play” with ideas in Czech? In English, this also somehow conjures up images of a person fiddling with a radio (“I play with the radio [set]”), trying to get it tuned to the correct station, which would be a different but still applicable, interesting metaphor.


    What I’m getting is that the construction is usually “[past participle] + jsem.” But I’m confused because I thought the word order was more flexible. Also, is this really even the same concept of a past participle? Is it more of a noun-ish thing? In Arabic, you could say, “I was a “live-er” in Amman,” to say, “I lived in Amman”/“I was living in Amman.” Saying I was a “live-er” (this word does not exist in English, and is definitely not “liver”! haha) in Amman somehow expresses something like the past imperfect, or an action that happened continually over a period of time instead of something that was a single completed event. It seems that verbs are much more simple in Czech, actually. Am I right?

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  5. What if I really wanted to express the idea of, “*As for myself*, I have only ever edited Wikipedia once in my whole life.” Shouldn’t I say, “*Já*, upravila jsem wikipedii”?


    What I really wanted to say was, “Seriously though. If you [anybody] have ever read anything even marginally [I used this word to stress that I am not a pervert who goes looking up sexual things on Wikipedia in my spare time!] related to sex [the act itself/sexuality as an idea, not the gender] on wikipedia, you will see that they were - quite obviously - written by men.” And this sentence is probably the truest thing I have written in this entire article :-)


    “že tento způsob” - “in this way.” Literally, I was trying to say, “our favorite comedy radio show said it [the idea alluded to previously that women are under/misrepresented on wikipedia] this way:” It seems this construction does not exist in Czech. How would you phrase this, then?


    If I had written this in English, I might have said, “Y’all want women to edit wikipedia?” or “Ya want…” or “So, you want…” All of these are slang(ish) vernacular ways that you would speak when trying to be funny. “Y’all” is mostly a Texas word. It is the only modern equivalent we have to “vývani”-ing as a plural.


    “A ‘control’ is necessary for a good science experiment.” A control is a test that sets the standard for what is “normal.” Without it, your experiment is not science. It’s junk :-)


    I suppose English is a little like German, where we can stuff a whole bunch of nouns in a row and it makes sense. I was trying to express the idea of “a Tupperware sales party.” Do you have these horrible things there, too? They are called multi-level marketing sales, where your friends try to pressure you into buying cheap products, and especially to also start selling the cheap products to your other friends, meanwhile making a commission. I hate these things with a passion.


    “Paying attention in class is important so you *do not fail*.”
    I was trying to express the idea of cause and effect. “If you do not pay attention, you will surely fail [future]/you do fail [present].” But since the ideas are reversed so that, “If you pay attention, you do not fail,” you have to use a helping verb “to do.” In old English you could say, “so you fail not.” But you can’t say that in modern English, and present continuous (“so you are not failing”) sounds horribly convoluted].
    Tak, možná: “Pozornost ve třídě je třeba důležitá, takže neselháni.”?


    How do you express the idea that “people elected Trump”? Would you just say it passively, “Trump was elected” “Trump byl zvolen”? How do you talk about people being “elected” if not with zvolící?


    Can you explain again what you understand when you see it written this way, “nedostatek zdravý rozum”? I understand why I need pád 2, ale nerozumím co vídíte (nebo vidíš...ugh...)

    Sweet! Another meaning for “třeba”! Bring it on!

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  6. No problem. Generally, you fall back to "vykání" until you are sure "tykání" si appropriate. There's a whole section of etiquette regarding who should offer "tykání" first - generally it's the one with the higher social status, so boss should offer "tykání" to an employee, an older person to a younger one, a woman to a man. In almost all cases, "tykání" is accepted, as rejecting is seen as an expression of rather strong dislike. In some groups, typically where the "everyone is equal" feeling is wanted, there's a rule "všichni si tykají", even if they don't know each other personally. Also, tykání goes hand in hand with referring to the person using just his/her given name, while the general mode of vykání usually uses "mister/missus Surname".

    The DTR thing is definitely true for vykání/tykání, too. For example, I still find it difficult to tykat to my mother-in-law, even though she offered it first and I have no dislike for her. A cliché way of offering tykání is over a first glass of alcohol that you drink with someone.

    Of course, I have no objections to "tykání" with you - můžeme si tykat.

    It's problematic, like in French, especially for such a foreign "thing" such as wikipedie. Often, such words vary in gender at first, different people finding it most natural to use different genders, but usually as the word gets more used, the media pick one and it prevails as the standard.

    While the word "Wikipedia" is not there, I'd like to recommend this web site: http://prirucka.ujc.cas.cz/ The upper search field can be used to search for Czech words, and will give you their gender, the entire declension and so on. Also, it's run by the official Institute for the Czech language of the Academy of Sciences, so no nonsense there. There are also texts about how various features of Czech work (in Czech).

    For atypical words, you might use the Czech version of the Wiktionary to find out the gender and the declension.

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  7. You can do the last thing you mention, "hrát si s rádiem" - that conjures the image of turning the knobs here and there on the device. We can also play with ideas - "pohrávat si s myšlenkou (na něco)". That means that you're undecided, something tempts you, but you're not sure, or don't have the time or resources. A sad but good example is "pohrávat si s myšlenkou na sebevraždu" (having thoughts about suicide).

    The word order of Czech is very flexible, especially when compared to the SVOMPT of English. Also, mixing the order should usually not lead to someone not being able to understand your meaning (but can convey a lot of flavors when said by a native speaker). The most basic trick is to move the thing you want to emphasize, or the new piece of info, to the end of the sentence.

    I don't thing it's a noun-ish thing. We have the concept of "dokonavost" (perfectiveness) in Czech, too ("vid" - aspect). Usually, we have variants of the verb, one perfect and one imperfect. Usually, the imperfect variant is seen as the basic form (číst) and you can make the perfect using some prefix or injecting some syllable (přečíst). Which to use on which verb is, I'm afraid rather irregular (but the general meaning of the prefixes is clear! It usually corresponds to a preposition that can be used on its own.). There are also ways to make a verb express repetitiveness (čítávat).

    "As for myself" - we'd say "Co se mě týče, já jsem ..." (regarding myself,) or "Já osobně jsem ..." (me, personally,).

    OK, I got it. "Pokud jste někdy četli jakýkoli článek na Wikipedii, který byť jen okrajově souvisí se sexem či sexualitou, určitě ho napsal muž."

    You could omit it altogether ("říkali: " - "said:"), or "řekli to takhle:" ("put it this way:")

    "Chcete, aby ženy upravovaly" is fine then. Or, if you wanted to be more jovial, you could say "Takže vy chcete, aby" (So, you want).

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  8. Ah. "kontrolní skupina" (control group) or "kontrolní vzorek" (control sample). Can't use "kontrola" on its own in this meaning in Czech.

    Czech is not like English and German in this sense, we love chaining prefixes and prepositions. Thankfully, I'm not aware of parties, but some people (both strangers and acquaintances) come to "visit you" to sell their stuff, usually cosmetics or vacuum cleaner. We also have so called "šmejdi", people who offer free trips to elderly people and then pressure them to buy over-priced home stuff, or who try to get your utilities bill under the guise of a routine check and then change your provider.

    I love old Yoda English. Again, "je třeba" = "is necessary", so no "důležitá" = "important"; it's either important or necessary, not both at the same time (it IS possible, but you'd at least need to join them with "a" = "and", better still to repeat the verb: "pozornost je důležitá a je třeba").
    Also, can't use "třeba" in this way, you need "aby" ("so that", "in order to"). And you need conditional for the sentence, resulting in "abyste neselhali" (conditional is "by" + past, of course the whole thing declensed).
    And the final blow, to "fail a class" is not "selhat". A well-used phrase is "propadnout" (literally "fall trough") for failing an entire year in school. In the elementary and secondary schools, the classes are tied into grades, so you cannot fail a single class - but if you fail enough of them, you must repeat the whole grade next year. In universities, you can fail classes, but there's no phrase for it, so you say "neudělal jsem to" - "I did not make it".

    Here we get to the aspect and the verb variants in practice! "volit" is imperfect, "zvolit" is perfect. This particular perfect verb can never occur in present, only in past or future. You can say "People elected Trump" - "Lidé zvolili Trumpa", also your "Trump was elected" - "Trump byl zvolen" is perfectly fine and both are common ways we talk about it. But you cannot use "zvolit" in present, only "volit".
    Other perfect verbs can be used in present. Some can, some cannot. Bummer.

    I'd liken it to "common sense, a deficiency". Either you're naming one thing the other, or you sound a bit like a Neanderthal ("Me good hunter, me be strong.")

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    Replies
    1. Those scenarios that you mentioned make me feel really sad. It is similar here. The MLM schemes are also depressing, but only because I watch my friends become "suckers" - they "fall for" these ideas, thinking they will somehow make millions. And then they make me try to buy their cheap trinkets, which is less sad and more annoying. Taking advantage of old people is mostly just sad.

      Haha, Yoda-speak basically what it always sounds like for English speakers learning Czech. And it's even more awkward when your subject pronouns disappear. "Is nice man." "Is big store." "Learns English well."

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